History of the Punjabi language

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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby jswaich » December 2nd, 2011, 3:43 pm

^^^ I agree. :)
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby Sarvar_Gill » December 2nd, 2011, 3:45 pm

@jswaich: Meerut is the place where Hastinapur is situated...

PS: I also think this is not a right place to discuss this... if you guys wanna continue let's go to Jat clans thread... :nod:
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby gbssungha » December 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

kujh samaan ਪੇਹ੍ਲਾਂ ਮੇਂ ਇਕ ਸੁਝਾਆ ਪੇਸ਼ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੀ ki aapne PP de utte saare punjabi vaale articles gurmukhi shahmukhi te devnagri scrpits vich aone chahide nen.. eh ikk bahut vadiyaa step ho sakda hai, PP / te punjabi di pahunch vadon daa.. PP sir nen oppose kittaaa si.. vaise mainu koi software naheen miliya gurmukhi nun devnagri ch direct transcribe karan lai.. main punjabi university valian nun vi email vagaira likhe par koi khaas success naheen mili.. ajj ik interesting article milaya..
http://www.sanjhapunjab.net/home/2011/1 ... #more-3414
jis vich 3 scrpits naal likhya giya hai.. bhaut changa lagga eh ਪੜ ਕੇ .. hopefully ਅਸੀਂ ਪੀ ਪੀ te front page ਵਾਲੇ articels vaaste ve je ਸ਼ਾਯਦ ਇਸ concept nun replicate kar sakiyae taan bahut vaddi acheivement ho sakdi hai...

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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 6th, 2011, 9:17 am

^^^Shahmukhi software is there i think but before starting the rest, how about teaching gurmukhi to people!! That would be the first natural step for anyone interested in punjabi language content.
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby gbssungha » December 6th, 2011, 9:43 am

it is easy to teach a similar/sister/neglected spoken dialect to a random learner than a dissimilar/ alien script..moreover, if we can achieve success in the form of implementation of devnagri punjabi format in one or two of current hindi dailies in punjab.. it may go a great lenght to support the cause of punjabi langauge in the battle against anti punjabi elements, who assocaite scripts with religions...
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 6th, 2011, 9:51 am

well, i guess maybe you're unaware of the history of language politics in east punjab........the whole issue around implementation of punjabi as state language was based on the rejection of gurmukhi as its script(though that was just an excuse to continue hindi)..........and what dialect are we trying to teach here anyway!!! the people who are not willing to recognize their language/dialect as punjabi or anything other than hindi have already made that choice delibrately not because of lack of exposure. Besides how is that going to solve the problem of kids in Punjab's cities not speaking punjabi despite learning it in school. Also, gurmukhi is not that alien to anyone knowing devnagri, i know people from himachal that can read it without ever learning it.....just looking at the bus signs and road signs, here again the question of choice comes up, otherwise pahari written in takri or at least devnagri would've been the state language the turth is its not even taught as one.


If we are talking about punjabi in the context of the diaspora abroad, then jews are a perfect example. They kept hebrew alive not only as a language of the religious literature but its script as well for 2000 years while living in Europe and North Africa(by passing it on and actually teaching it to their kids along with religious education from childhood)....and all the while speaking various local languages as their first language. The same with muslims and the quran, so much so that other languages are now written in arabic derived scripts. No matter how many other scripts you try to write it in, its not going to go beyond the first generation if it is not learnt or taught the way a language is supposed to be learnt. Case in point italiano. Written in the same roman script but it disappears after the second generation in North America and Australia cuz its not taught formally.
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby iPunjabi » December 7th, 2011, 12:29 am

which dialect is used in this song?



this song is copied from a pakistani movie "suraiya bhopali". posted in plagiarism thread-

post577329.html#p577329
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 7th, 2011, 4:43 am

^^^ thats dakhni hindostani(hindi/urdu) spoken by muslims of former hyderabad state i.e south east Maharashtra(including dakhni sikhs of hazur sahib and bidar), north east Karnataka, northern and western Andhra Pradesh as well as the former Mysore state in southern karnataka and northwest Tamil Nadu.

The khari boli/rekhta dialect from Delhi was introduced in the Deccan region during Alauddin Khilji's invasion between 1295 AD to 1316 AD....later more people moved when the capital was shifted from Delhi to Daulatabad in the Deccan by Sultan Tugluq and then after Mughal invasions, it was known with other names such as Hindostani, Zaban Hindostani, Dehalvi and Hindawi.
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby Sarvar_Gill » December 7th, 2011, 5:34 am

@gbssungha: bhaji best way is type in Roman script, then in google labs use Punjabi to get Gurmukhi script, Hindi to get Devanagari script and Urdu to get Shahmukhi script...

@5jabiportal: Bhaji Jews and Muslims kept Hebrew or Arabic alive because these were their liturgical languages, whereas Punjabi Hindus or Punjabi Muslims dont have any such connection with Punjabi language...

I agree that in Punjab those who have chosen Hindi over Punjabi have done this deliberately, but in new generation there are many people who dont have any hatred for Punjabi... I think instead of Devanagari these people prefer reading Punjabi in Roman script...
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 7th, 2011, 6:01 am

@sarvar: read it again the lines at the bottom were in the context of the diaspora abroad and that essentialy is the Punjabi Sikh diaspora(very similar situation to jews and muslims) for whom the roman script is suggested and besides shahmukhi is widely used by muslims and the translation software does exist ....... in punjab most non-sikhs can read gurmukhi as its taught in the education system...also, its hard to avoid learning reading/writing punjabi now while living in Punjab even Haryana and himachal have Punjabi language teaching available in gurmukhi script in schools now, it took them 40 years to reverse the decisions but it has happened.
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby anakhi » December 7th, 2011, 7:07 am

If we are to consider the the number of speakers that speak Punjabi and its dialects, then it certainly has very good numbers. I guess, probably in the top 15 languages (maybe even top 10) spoken in the world if not better. There's a lot to work with if one thinks about it. However, the scripts divide the people : shahmukhi and gurmukhi being the two main scripts. I'm not aware of Devanagri being used that widely for Punjabi.

edited :nvm

@gbssunga Try this for gurmukhi to devanagri transliteration.

Click on the अ button to convert to devanagri. It does the basic job IMO to get the message across.
Code: Select all
http://devanaagarii.net/hi/girgit/


5jabiportal wrote:......before starting the rest, how about teaching gurmukhi to people!! That would be the first natural step for anyone interested in punjabi language content.

I tend to agree on this and even if I'm being a bit selfish, I think Gurmukhi should be promoted. While all these different scripts are good to get the message across, but somewhere I feel at the same time we dilute the value of Gurmukhi. Maybe it's selfish thinking :P

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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby Sarvar_Gill » December 7th, 2011, 7:40 am

5jabiportal wrote:Written in the same roman script but it disappears after the second generation in North America and Australia cuz its not taught formally.

Punjabi is still surviving in the third generation of refugees who migrated from Pakistan to Delhi or Haryana in 1947 without any formal education... now the only way they are in touch with Punjabi is through Punjabi songs or this new trend of Punjabism in Bollywood movies... for these people I was suggesting the Roman script...

further we have to accept the existence of the daughters of Punjabi: Saraiki, Dogri and Himachali... they all are grown up now... if we support these newly emerging languages, then definitely it's a Punjabi that will gain...
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 7th, 2011, 8:55 am

@sarvar: geez that was a comment about the diaspora abroad not about india and you left out the 'italiano' part thats what the comparison was about and Roman is basically suggested as an alternative for people abroad. Those things don't apply in the Indian context and certainly not in a place as punjabi as Delhi(which also has punjabi as an official language)......by the way the new generations of the '47 punjabi families have for the most part moved on to 'delhi punjabi' accented hindi as their primary language. Also, dogri speakers are against being termed as punjabi or any link being suggested to that effect and pahari speakers still try to pass off pahari as a hindi dialect for political reasons.

Another thing is we are having a hard time communicating with each other in two scripts in use already. Imagine English being written in all the native scripts. Roman is more or less used on the net as well, in absence of the ease of using punjabi fonts but you have to recognize the fact that a language can only be known properly if it is learnt either at home or thourgh the education system. Also, gurmukhi(sidhmatrika/takri) has more or less been accepted by all communities in India now after a long and hard struggle, as the primary script, the very purpose it was intended for, going back and starting the script/devnagri debate again will do nothing but surely start the age old arguement however flawed it maybe, about gurmukhi and the sikh connection........there is a movement in jammu to reintroduce takri as well. Anyway history thread may not be the best place to discuss this present day issue, we've already filled two pages discussing other random stuff.
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby Sarvar_Gill » December 7th, 2011, 8:09 pm

I agree that Devanagari for Standard Punjabi is not required as people have already accepted it in Gurmukhi script... but Dogri and Himachali dialects are currently using Devanagari script... if we want Pan-Punjabi culture to flourish we have to accept these dialects in Devanagari script as we have embraced Standard Punjabi and Saraiki in Shahmukhi script...
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 8th, 2011, 4:34 am

there is no formal use of devnagri for pahari in himachal yet. Hindi is used for everything...dunno why they didnot start teaching it in schools or at least encouraging writing and literature in it. Jammu always had the Maharaja's patronage for dogri but they too succumbed to Arya Samaj pressure from Lahore and Amritsar and switched to devangri from takri in mid 1940's, they might switch back from what i hear.


On another note, is there a concise resource of punjabi folk tales and stories. Also, is there a way to tell where each one of them are from? like roop basant is from Sanghol etc.
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby Sarvar_Gill » December 8th, 2011, 12:20 pm

I read few Himachali books, they were all in Devanagari and Dogri is also taught in Devanagari script in the schools in Jammu...

Like Maharajas of Jammu, Maharajas of Chamba and Mandi were also the patronages of Chambiali and Mandiali...they also have a same story of switching from Takri to Devanagari in mid 40's...

my point was if someone is making any site dedicated to Punjabi.. it should include Saraiki, Dogri and Himachali also...

5jabiportal wrote:On another note, is there a concise resource of punjabi folk tales and stories. Also, is there a way to tell where each one of them are from?

Check these two links:

http://www.apnaorg.com/books/english/legends-punjab-1/book.php?fldr=book

http://www.apnaorg.com/books/english/legends-punjab-2/book.php?fldr=book

5jabiportal wrote:like roop basant is from Sanghol etc.


as per legends in Punjab their father Kharag Sen was king of Sri Lanka (Sangaladeep) and later Roop became the king of Egypt (Misar Des)

as per legends in Haryana, Kharag Sen was king of Dhar (in Madhya Pradesh)... Dhar was center of culture and learning under Raja Bhoj (1000-1055 AD) hope this story travelled from Dhar to Punjab via Haryana...
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 8th, 2011, 2:13 pm

So, far only sites with one script are proving challenging and if you want to publish something for Dogri or siraiki speakers it has to be in those dialects merely changing the script is going to do nothing...but anyway........

As per local legends of the area and a few older books of the british era describing the area, the legend revolves around Sanghol, one mentioned a city on an island sorrounded by two cahnnels of a river(large boat oars have been found in excavations there). Could it have travelled the oppositie way!!

Also, Dharanagri is metioned again and again in legends and geneologies in Punjab, dunno what the connection is there but there is an actual historical account of Shaka(Scythians) rulers losing dharanagri a fort in the hills of Malwa(MP) in a battle and being driven north-westwards(towards nagaur-bikaner) out of there around 400-500 AD, .
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby Sarvar_Gill » December 8th, 2011, 2:46 pm

5jabiportal wrote:Could it have travelled the oppositie way!!

Could be possible... as city of Ropar has been said to be founded by some Roop Sen (ਰੂਪ ਸੈਨ)

5jabiportal wrote:Also, Dharanagri is metioned again and again in legends and geneologies in Punjab, dunno what the connection is there but there is an actual historical account of Shaka(Scythians) rulers losing dharanagri a fort in the hills of Malwa(MP) in a battle and being driven north-westwards(towards nagaur-bikaner) out of there around 400-500 AD, .

yeah, this Dharanagri is said to be the capital of Raja Jagdev (progenitor of Paramaras)... Paramara Rajputs and many Jat clans claim their origin from this city... but at the time of Shakas capital was Ujjain and Paramaras of Dhara came into picture after the downfall of Kingdom of Kannauj in 11th century... Their are many Muslim Paramar Rajputs in Sind and Punjab... Even Sunet near Ludhiana and Janer near Moga were the capitals of small Paramar Rajput Kings... They used to have nine small kingdoms all along Satluj before the arrival of Mahmud of Ghazni... That's why in Punjab they were using the title "Nau Koti Paramar"
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby 5jabiportal » December 8th, 2011, 3:01 pm

hmmm...interesting i was reading a british era clan and geneological record and this punwar, parmar etc. are the progenitors of so many jatt clans from Bahawalpur and Multan(where jatt clans still use those last names interestingly) all the way to Payal, Ambala, Sargodha, Amritsar etc.......and many of those clans didnot intermarry with each other in the olden days as they were thought to be the same clan. After leaving their fort they seem to have moved towards the kingdoms of Bhattis and Chuahans in Rajasthan(maybe their relatives) and then northwards, makes sense as you metioned the forts around the satluj. Also, there were older kingdoms of smaller Punjab specific rajput clans like Manj, Saroa(also the forbearers of many other jatt last names) etc. already in Patti-kasur and Sialkot areas......wrong thread here lol.

The first time i read of dharangri was a long time ago in Sant singh Sekhon's biographical account in which he mentioned the origin of the Sekhon clan being from the parmars of Dharanagri kingdom.


Have you heard of the folk tale bopolucchi?
Old Punjabi Movie Songs

ਮੈਂ ਦੱਸਿਓ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਤੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਈਆਂ॥
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Re: History of the Punjabi language

Postby Sarvar_Gill » December 8th, 2011, 3:35 pm

5jabiportal wrote:hmmm...interesting i was reading a british era clan and geneological record and this punwar, parmar etc. are the progenitors of so many jatt clans from Bahawalpur and Multan(where jatt clans still use those last names interestingly) all the way to Payal, Ambala, Sargodha, Amritsar etc.......

bilkul sahi... in Sind almost all Rajput and Jat clan claim their origin from Parmars... I think it's only Solankis and Rathores along the Rajasthan border are the one that do not claim to be Parmars..

5jabiportal wrote:After leaving their fort they seem to have moved towards the kingdoms of Bhattis and Chuahans in Rajasthan(maybe their relatives) and then northwards, makes sense as you metioned the forts around the satluj. Also, there were older kingdoms of smaller Punjab specific rajput clans like Manj, Saroa(also the forbearers of many other jatt last names) etc. already in Patti-kasur and Sialkot areas......wrong thread here lol.

I beleve it's otherway around.. from Sistan (Kandhar region) they migrated to Punjab and Sind and from Sind via Rajasthan they reached Malwa Plateau... historical route followed by many Scythian tribes...

5jabiportal wrote:Have you heard of the folk tale bopolucchi?

no brother, never heard about this...
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